Responses to Questions on
Unificationism on the Internet - Volume 22
Feb 3 1996
Subject: Re: What's the true story?
Newsgroups: alt.religion.unification,alt.support.ex-cult,talk.religion.misc,alt.religion.christian,alt.messianic
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Zaynab Richmond (zaynab@ecis.com) wrote:
: I have heard that the Unification Church or Rev. Moon or perhaps an
: affiliated 'front group' owns a factory that produces M-16 (rifles?) or a
: part for this weapon. I would like to hear from the Unification Church
: members about this -- it is true, or do you say it is misinformation?
: I'm sure you're aware of how damaging it sounds to your cause, for it
: states in Micah 4:3 something about converting weapons into farming
: equipment in the last days... nothing about the Messiah supporting weapon
: production. :) Anyhow, with all due respect to the anti-cult folks, I'd
: really like to hear the story from the point of view of the UC members,
: because I have long felt that the best info usually comes from those who
: are most involved with a movement.
Let me ask you a few questions:
(1) Is it ethical to defend oneself against armed agression?
(2) Are you aware that the Republic of Korea (South Korea) and
the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea) are still
at war, though not a shooting war? There is a truce but no
peace treaty.
(3) Are you aware that there are 1 MILLION troops mobilized in
the region of the demilitarized zone of the 38th parallel in Korea?
(4) Is it legal to manufacture arms to defend one's country in South Korea?
(5) Is it then ethical to manufacture arms to defend oneself and one's
country against a heavily armed agressor?
I think that your answers will speak for themselves.
My answers are:
(1) Yes, (2) Yes, (3) Yes, (4) Yes, (5) Yes.
: With love,
: Your sister,
: Zaynab
With love,
Your brother,
Damian
Damian Anderson +1-301-921-0082 Home +1-202-267-9403 Work damian@unification.net
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Feb 3 1996
Subject: Are Unificationists Christians?
Newsgroups: alt.religion.unification,talk.religion.misc,alt.religion.christian,alt.messianic
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Tilman Hausherr (tilman@berlin.snafu.de) wrote:
: In <4elr5l$d4k@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, andybacus@aol.com (AndyBacus)
: wrote:
: >I was not aware that Tilman was such an authority on Christianity. Could
: >you explain to us what a Christian is?
: People who believe that Mr. Christ is the messiah, and the ultimate
: representative of God on this planet. (There's probably a definition in
: a better language)
: That makes Moonism a non-christian religion; besides, Damian himself
: said that it is not a christian religion.
You misrepresent what I said here. I said that Unificationism is
not a sect of Christianity. That is not the same thing as what you
said. What I mean by that is that Unificationism is not merely
another of many hundreds of sects of Christianity, but it is a
faith based on a revelation to complete the Christian religion and
the New Testament, just in the same way as the faith of Jesus was
the origin of a new religion intended to fulfill the promise of
the Old Testament. Unificationism is the faith of the Completed
Testament Age.
Rev. Sun Myung Moon represents the fulfilment of the promise of
the Christian religion that Christ will come again. He has come
and he is living among us today. But to say that he or his followers
are not good Christians is like saying that Jesus and his followers
were not good Jews. The Jewish religion was created for ONE PURPOSE
ALONE, and that was to prepare the people to be able to receive
the Messiah when he came. It did that by teaching them how to live
God's way of life. Unfortunately, they were not ready and they
killed him when he came.
Likewise, the purpose of the Christian religion is to prepare the
believers to receive the Messiah when he comes again so that the
world can finally be restored to the state that God intended in
the first place when He created us, before our ancestors screwed
it up and alienated themselves from Him. In a similar manner, we
are taught to live Godly lives, though one hopes that it is on a
higher level than the former revelation. So Jesus encouraged his
followers to exceed the righteousness of the former age.
Again, the purpose of the Unification faith is to teach people how
to attend the Messiah now that he has come, and to create a new
world order based on God's way of life, God's principles, and to
create the eternal reign of God on Earth. The three religions are
brothers, Judaism, Christianity, and Unificationism, in a steady
progression of revelation, with the same theme and the same goal.
Again, the revelation of Unificationism cannot fulfil its purpose
unless it stands at a higher level than the revelations of former
ages. Rev. Moon encourages his disciples to live lives of virtue
unparallelled in the history of humanity. His life is a testimony
to his teachings.
: "Unification of Christianity" is deceptive - because it "forgets" to say
: that this unification is not *in* Christianity, but in a different
: religion.
You just missed the whole point Tilman. Unification is not achieved
among peers. It is achieved when each unites with one central point.
Unity cannot come about without a center. The solar system is a
unified system with the sun at the center. The world, or religions
cannot be united without a center. The Messiah comes as that center,
around which all religions can unite. That is what Unificationism
is doing. It is THE messianic religion of the 20th century. From
the Unification culture, a new world will come about.
: Tilman
Damian Anderson +1-301-921-0082 Home +1-202-267-9403 Work damian@unification.net
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Feb 3 1996
Steve Hassan wrote:
> IS THERE ANY VALID CRITERIA MEMBERS CAN USE TO DISBELIEVE?
>
> 3 Feb 1996 21:31:09 GMT
>
>The human capacity for rationalization, justification, wishful thinking,
>and denial is enormous- especially when the stakes are high: admitting
>that the Perfect Messiah is not perfect: is a liar, is vain, is power
>and money hungry and has children who are just like the children of
>other multi-millionaires.
These are merely slurs against the man's character with no evidence to
suggest any wrongdoing. Are you a more righteous man than Rev. Moon that
you can stand in judgement of him? I don't think so, Mr. Hassan.
>What will it take for members to wake up? What will it take for members
>to realize that they have been indoctrinated into a closed system of
>"faith and obedience" with no free will, no indiependent thinking and no
>reality testing?
I am fully awake and I live in the real world with a real job as do most
Unificationists these days. One man's indoctrination is another man's
religious education. I have free will, I am an independent thinker and I
believe that I have a firm grasp of reality, and four college degrees to
boot. And I make a living the old fashioned way, I earn it. You on the
other hand are in the rather murky and shady racket of "exit counseling".
Is it not strange that the subjects of your counseling efforts do not
volunteer for it? Is that a manifestation of a respect for free will and
independent thinking?
>If Moon came down with syphillis and went in front of the members,
>confessed he was with prostitutes, got syphillis, and that he is not the
>Messiah. Would members believe him or would they just believe that this
>was a test of faith?
This is a hypothetical question since it has not happened.
>I used to quote the Bible when I lectured the Divine Principle in 1974,
>1975, 1976, "You will know the tree by the fruit it bears." Hyo Jin Moon
>has a drug problem, and a lying problem (another reason my post about
>his second arrest is relevant). He is the fruit of his father.
So, is God to be judged based on the quality of humanity which He
created? Sorry, but each individual must bear responsibility for
their own actions, and you cannot blame the sins of any man on his
father. Each man must bear his own sin.
>Steve Hassan M.Ed, LMHC
Damian Anderson M.A. (Cantab) M.Sc. Dipl. Rel Ed. :-)
>"I know but one freedom & that is the freedom of the mind"
>Antoine de Saint Exupery
There is no freedom without responsibility.
Damian Anderson +1-301-921-0082 Home +1-202-267-9403 Work damian@unification.net
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Feb 5 1996
Subject: Re: Is There Any Valid Criteria Members Can Use to Disbelieve?
Newsgroups: alt.religion.unification,alt.support.ex-cult,talk.religion.misc,alt.religion.christian,alt.messianic
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Steven Hassan (shassan@tiac.net) wrote:
: Moon's own actions stand in judgement of him. The U. S. Congressional
: investigation frinal report stated that there was evidence of systematic
: wrongdoing. Moon is a convicted criminal for tax conspiracy and served
: time. Moon has instructed followers to tell lies. Moon's own "perfect
: son" has an alcohol and deception problem. The list is enormous.
The man was railroaded, and if you bothered to spend some time to
research the facts, you might come to a similar conclusion. The
fact is that Rev. Moon is still going strong and growing, and his
detractors have fallen by the wayside. Mr. Fraser is out of Congress.
The last time I heard, he was the mayor of Minneapolis.
: >I am fully awake and I live in the real world with a real job as
: >do most Unificationists these days. One man's indoctrination is
: >another man's religious education. I have free will, I am an
: >independent thinker and I believe that I have a firm grasp of
: >reality, and four college degrees to boot. And I make a living the
: >old fashioned way, I earn it. You on the other hand are in the
: >rather murky and shady racket of "exit counseling". Is it not
: >strange that the subjects of your counseling efforts do not volunteer
: >for it? Is that a manifestation of a respect for free will and
: >independent thinking?
: I have a graduate degree in counseling and all of my clients volunteer
: willingly to speak with me or else I will not meet with them. My one
: year of involuntary interventions with Moonies (some were legal,
: conservatorship cases too) ended in 1977. I had exited the Moonies
: in 1976. 1977, yet the Moon organization continues to tell lies about
: me and my activities.
Oh, so you are now admitting that only SOME of your *involuntary
interventions* were legal? What were the others? Kidnapping?
Involuntary imprisonment? Are these not felonies? A man such as
you has no business throwing stones, since you live in a glass
house.
: >>If Moon came down with syphillis and went in front of the members,
: >>confessed he was with prostitutes, got syphillis, and that he is not the
: >>Messiah. Would members believe him or would they just believe that this
: >>was a test of faith?
: >
: >This is a hypothetical question since it has not happened.
: But, I put it to you. If he repented and told you he was a false messiah,
: would you believe it?
Well, if you repented and told me you were the Queen of Sheba,
should I believe you? :-) The premise of the question is false, so
I cannot answer it.
: >>I used to quote the Bible when I lectured the Divine Principle in 1974,
: >>1975, 1976, "You will know the tree by the fruit it bears." Hyo Jin Moon
: >>has a drug problem, and a lying problem (another reason my post about
: >>his second arrest is relevant). He is the fruit of his father.
: >
: >So, is God to be judged based on the quality of humanity which He
: >created? Sorry, but each individual must bear responsibility for
: >their own actions, and you cannot blame the sins of any man on his
: >father. Each man must bear his own sin.
: Absolutely, and Moon dies. Hyo Jin was destined to take over the movement.
: That was what Moon told us in 1974. Has plans changed?
I don't know that Hyo Jin will be taking over anything. For the
foreseeable future, Rev. Moon will be running the church, and then
his wife will continue as the leader of the church after his death.
After that, I don't know, but I am not worried about it.
As for Rev. Moon being judged, he is the Lord of Judgement, and
will sit at God's right hand to separate the sheep from the goats.
: Damian,
: you DID notice that you didn't answer the question I posed in the title.
: Is there ANY criteria you or other members can use to think independently
: of the group dogma?
Wouldn't you just LOVE to know! I already said that I am an
independent thinker. My life is not based on dogma, but on a set
of principles of a life of faith that Rev. Moon has taught. He
teaches that we must life according to our conscience. To have a
clear conscience, we must live a pure life. A principled life has
a much stronger foundation than a dogmatic life. It can sustain
trials that would kill the faith of one who only believed
unquestioningly in dogma. Our faith receives so many trials that
only the hardiest make it, but those who do are men and women of
the greatest strength of character and determination.
You will have to keep fishing Steve, and maybe you will find what
you are lookiung for, but it may not be what you expect!
: Steve Hassan M.Ed, LMHC
Damian Anderson +1-301-921-0082 Home +1-202-267-9403 Work damian@unification.net
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Feb 13 1996
Subject: No original sin?
Newsgroups: alt.religion.unification,talk.religion.misc,alt.religion.christian
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Frank Kaufmann (fortl@nyc.pipeline.com) wrote:
: On Feb 01, 1996 20:05:01 in article ,
: 'tilman@berlin.snafu.de (Tilman Hausherr)' wrote:
:
:
: >In <4em4n4$gl7@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, andybacus@aol.com (AndyBacus)
: wrote:
: >
: >> However, being born without original sin does mean that in the excerise
: >>of that person's free will he will always make the right decisions.
: >
: >Is there any advantage of being born without original sin ?
:
: This is the perfect question Tilman. I can think of no better question to
: present to Unificationists.
:
: Frank
It is a good question. My answer is that the one who has been born
without original sin is like Adam or Jesus, who, without grievous
sin would naturally grow to perfection without the same struggle
that he rest of us encounter. However, that depends on the individual
to fulfil their responsibility. Adam did not, but Jesus did. As
for Rev. Moon's children, time will tell.
There is no doubt in my mind that my children have a great head
start compared to where I was at their age in the area of personal
piety and knowledge of God. I was raised in a Catholic environment
where not questioning was a virtue, and I hated it. However, I did
adopt the values of my parents, to a large extent, even if I did
not adopt their Catholic theology. Whether they will adopt my values
in adolescence and adulthood remains to be seen.
Damian Anderson +1-301-921-0082 Home +1-202-267-9403 Work damian@unification.net
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Feb 13 1996
Subject: Re: World Scripture - Eternal Life
Newsgroups: alt.religion.unification,talk.religion.misc,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.islam
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Abdulazziz (abdulazziz@aol.com) wrote:
: Your article is quite interesting, however not complete. In Islam the
: concept of life and death is clear and refers to this world. There is a
: state of imortality which will exist after the Judgement Day in which ever
: person will account for his or her deeds in this world. Every thing which
: you did, or didnot do will weigh on that judgment. Those who worship God
: as he prescribed to his prophets, and did not change the religion as was
: given to the prophets, and put none equal or above the God Almighty,will
: recieve the gift of paradise for eternity. And those who distorted the
: religion and did not follow the guidance of God and His prophets, for them
: is the eternity of the fires of hell.
: Please forgive and correct me if what I may have recounted is not
: accurate. It is a grave sin to attribute anything to God or a Prophet
: which is not true.
I cannot comment on the accuracy of your statements with regard to
Islam. I am the messenger, not the author of the message.
My question is this: If the Judgement Day has not yet come, then
where are the dead? Where is the holy prophet? Is he in paradise
now, or is he waiting for the day of Judgement like everyone else?
My belief is that he is already in paradise. And all those who
lived according the the teachings of the Holy Prophet Muhammad are
also in paradise. But I would be interested in what you have to
say and what the typical Islamic belief is today.
Damian Anderson +1-301-921-0082 Home +1-202-267-9403 Work damian@unification.net
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Feb 13 1996
Subject: Re: UTexts: What is the Change of Blood Lineage?
Newsgroups: alt.religion.unification,talk.religion.misc,alt.religion.christian
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Tilman Hausherr (tilman@berlin.snafu.de) wrote:
: In ,
: richa011@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Eric B. Richardson) wrote:
: >> Does this mean that we now have three levels ? Genetic, physical and
: >> spiritual ? Does this mean that "physical" is a sort of "spiritual
: >> physical" ?
: >
: >No, two. But just because something spiritual is manifested in the
: >physical does not make it genetic.
: >
: >And actually it is spiritual/physical, they are like two sides of the same
: >coin. The Bible makes clear (among other religions and their teachings)
: >that the physical is but a shadow of the spiritual.
: Ok I begin to understand. You said in the beginning "the change is
: spiritual not genetic". Therefore I assumed that for you, genetic is the
: opposite of spiritual.
: Your actual statement should probably be:
: The change is considered spiritual and physical,
: while the physical part is non genetic.
: Would you agree with that statement ?
I would very much de-emphasize any physical change as a result of
a spiritual change. It would be comparable to an alcoholic deciding
to live a Godly life and change his habits. There would of course
be a physical change if his habits changed, but they would be entirely
caused by the spiritual change which caused the change in behavior.
I don't think that there is a genetic change at all by someone's
life being sanctified in God's grace, but then I am not a biologist,
and I could not be absolutely certain on that point.
: I'd say that your original statement was simply incomplete and
: misleading.
: Anyway, this is of course difficult to understand for the average
: person: so you are "physically" the child of Moon, but non genetically.
I do not consider myself to be physically a child of Rev. Moon. He
has adopted me into his family and his lineage, and I am as a true
son, but it is a metaphorical sonship rather than an actual sonship.
It would be as if I treated my best friend's son as my own son. I
would love him as a son, even though he was not related to me at
all.
: Is there a physical test to check if someone if a child of Moon ? I ask
: this because something "physical" can be verified, while something
: spiritual is a matter of belief.
No, there is no physical test and no physical change.
: >> The early christians didn't use *actual* blood. It was a symbolic act.
: >
: >So?
: >
: >I doubt that there was any real blood in any wine I drank.
: There wasn't either in the wine I bought yesterday, so your statement
: could mean anything.
The Holy Wine ceremony is a ceremony signifying the change of blood
lineage from Satan's lineage to God's lineage, through His
representative on the Earth, the True Parents. I do not know if
there is anything special about the wine other than that it has
been sanctified for this purpose. Catholics use holy water, which
is water that has been blessed and it is used in ceremonies in
church. The Holy Wine is similar. However, the significance is not
based on the physical properties of the wine, but on the meaning
invested in the wine by the ceremony. A wedding ring is a metal
object, but when used in a marriage ceremony, it takes on a sacred
meaning, it symbolizes a promise. So, I look at the Holy Wine in
this way. The Unification tradition also uses Holy Salt, which is
used for sanctification of objects that we buy to consume, and also
things that we buy to keep, such as land and homes. You will see
more on that in the Tradition Book on my web page at:
http://www.unification.net/tradition
: It depends where you had the ceremony. The ceremony with the blood was
: done by all at the times the blessings were smaller. I assume it is not
: done (with blood) at the video-link-blessing, and that it is done only
: by a representative at the Korean on-location blessing.
In Africa, where people were very suspicious of contamination and
poisoning, in 1995 the Blessing was officiated in churches (not
the Unification Church) by the pastor of that church. The Holy Wine
was given by the pastor of the church, known to the congregant, so
that they would trust that it had not been poisioned or contaminated.
It was in fact prepackaged in small plastic yogurt packages by the
thousands.
In Taiwan, a member of the cabinet of the President of Taiwan
officiated at the Blessing. There, a large number of couples received
the blessing with the government organizing it since they see that
the Blessing is a strong public acknowledgement of the importance
and value of the God-centered family.
: The stuff about the blood can be read in MS 19/20 May 1978 p17,
: "Father's speech: preparation for blessing".
I have not seen this and cannot verify this.
: >> It is in the book of a critic, Reverend Gandow. He names the following
: >> source:
: >>
: >> Kim Young-Whi: 8.4.1984: "True celebration of Parent's Day", in
: >> "Guidance" p. 125
: >>
: >> I don't know what this source is, or who Kim Young-Whi is. The name
: >> might also be reversed. Simply get the names of the first child of the
: >> four wives, at least one should match.
I know Young Whi Kim. He was for a long time the president of the
Korean Unification Church and is an early disciple of Rev. Moon.
I have many of his speeches on my web page at:
http://www.unification.net/ght3
under the title "Guide for Heavenly Tradition - Volume 3", but the
date you mention (which I presume is 8 April 1984 - European date
style) is earlier than the first entry. I have 37 speeches from
his time as a European church leader.
: >Basic hearsay then isn't it?
: >
: >Why should I bother to check on the accuracy of your bullshit meanderings?
I really have to apologize for Eric's tone and bad attitude. It
gives the Unification Church a bad name.
: Sorry but I just gave you the source. I don't know what "Guidance" is,
: but from the sub title "True celebration of Parent's Day" it looks like
: a pro-moon book / scripture. Maybe you aren't advanced enough to read
: it.
It was probably the transcription of a Sunday service sermon, like
the others I have online.
: >> no. I find nothing wrong with that ceremony. Although this ceremony
: >> might be illegal on the US internet now. But seriously - it shows that
: >> there is much more than just "spiritual" here. The members of the Moon
: >> org really get to be the children of the "true mother".
: >
: >Yes, that is the whole point.
: So then, wouldn't you say that the "holy milk" ceremony is at least
: "logical" ?
This may be a fiction of Gandow's. I have never heard of it in my
almost 20 years in the church.
: >> >And who is Je-Jin anyway? Never heard of him or her.
: >>
: >> neither have I - I don't even know from which of the four wives the
: >> child is. Is there a WWW page with a list ?
This is probably Ye Jin, Rev. and Mrs. Moon's first daughter.
: >> I'm still waiting to know what the holy handkerchiefs are for.
: >
: >Me too.
: So you are either single, or in the no-sex period.
The Holy Handkerchief is used in the 3 day consummation of marriage
ceremony, and honestly, I don't remember the details. They tend
not to be made too publicly available, since it is clearly a subject
that could be mocked. However, it is a most sacred and precious
ceremony which marks the beginning of married life of the couple.
Since couples frequently do not know one another if the marriage
is arranged, not all are, there is often quite some time between
the marriage and the consummation.
: >> And yes, it is a good move.
: >>
: >> When a family travels to a Moonification camp to meet their child, you
: >> guys also don't let them enter. The right of free travel is also
: >> non-existant there. But of couse thaaaaat is different, right ?
: >
: >Depends on the parents and their attitudes. I have seen as many parents
: >gain admission to these camps as get turned away.
: So 50% are denied to visit.
The church runs retreats, sometimes in the city, sometimes in the
country. There were problems in the past with hostile parents of
young adults coming to these retreats with the intent of forcibly
removing their adult offspring. It is unfortunate, and a result of
misunderstandings. In America, many churches run summer camps, a
time for kids to play in the countryside, swim, ride horses, play
volleyball, fish, enjoy nature, and also to sing, pray and learn
the tenets of their faith. It is a wonderful way to spend a week
or two in the summer. Unfortunately, when the Unification Church
did it, the vision of "CAMPS!!!!!" was conjured up as if it were a
concentration camp, when the comparison is quite absurd. I intend
to send my two older children to camp this summer, now that they
are both old enough, they need to be 8, and they will spend a week
in the Shenandoah Mountains with their friends from Sunday School,
and are very much looking forward to it.
: But the "choice" here isn't given, since the superiors decide and
: influence. The official line is that the parents are with SATAN if they
: are critical, so the contact should be broken.
That is not true. The Unification Church does not teach that critical
people are with Satan. However, there are many cases of people
coming to the church from disfunctional families such that young
people did not necessarily want to see their parents. I last visited
my parents in England in August 1994, and I intend to go with my
family to visit them again this summer. The main constraint was
budgetary. My parents do not exactly approve of my involvement in
the Unification Church, but since I am almost 40, and the father
of 4 kids, they have to respect it. It may be that those who did
not want to see their parents felt that way precisely because their
parents did not respect their choice and wanted to change their
minds by coercion of some kind. My parents were wise enough not to
do that, and we now enjoy a very good relationship with each another.
: >Would you care to dispute the line "We are an international student group..."?
: Yes. "Students" is assumed to be university students. When CARP
: recruiters are not students at all, it is deceptive.
Generally speaking, those representing themselves on campus as CARP
members are in fact students, so I would dispute this claim. Others
may support the CARP leaders, but the leaders are students. Now,
I cannot vouch for that everywhere, but I know that CARP has over
a period of years improved its relationships with many universities
by adhering strictly to the policies of leaders being students.
They have overcome a lot of bad press by coming to arrangements
with university hierarchy about such matters. I was a CARP leader
in Cambridge University in England in 1978-1980, but only while I
was a full-time student there. After graduating, I went on to other
things, such as MFT! :-)
: >> You people are free to practice your religion. In Minneapolis and
: >> elsewhere. You are not free do lie to people.
: >>
: >> I don't mind the practice of religion. But religion should not be
: >> allowed things that are not allowed in normal business.
: >
: >I agree with that.
: Then stop the deception at the recruiting. I already suggested a line:
: "Hello, my name is John, I am a member of the Unification
: Church. My I invite you to a seminar ?"
I agree with this. However, I tend to get to know someone before
I invite them to anything. However, I did invite people on the
street to an event in which Mrs. Moon spoke at the University of
Maryland a couple of years ago, and then I was very clear that I
was inviting people to hear the wife of Rev. Sun Myung Moon speak.
Many people had not heard of him or her.
: >> A good one to start is to find out why you did 1 year on MFT and Andy 5
: >> years.
: >
: >Because we are different people.
: That doesn't answer it. Is Andy's faith higher than yours ? Are you too
: lazy ? Or is Andy a fanatic ? Or is Andy a guy who couldn't say no,
: while you could ? Or was Andy a better fund-raiser, a sort of
: Mini-Steve-Hassan ?
I did 15 months on MFT, and I look back on it now as a learning
experience, but it was a hard learning experience at the time.
: >> The only one who told he reads real newspapers is Tim Elder, but he does
: >> it for work.
: >
: >I have told you different before. Again, you have a selective memory.
I am fairly well versed about what happens in society, but I don't
find time to read the newspapers too much. I read the Washington
Times, I listen to the news on several radio stations on the way
to work, and I watch CNN. :-)
: >We four/five are the standard. One person who has posted here lives in a
: >center, and that is probably an over-representation of the reality. Your
: >having an opinion doesn't make it true. Your unwilligness to change it
: >when confronted by people who live it currently and tell you different,
: >only demonstrates the reality of your prejudice.
: I posted several articles that showed that MFT and similar are still
: used. While I have no data about percentage, fact is that not all
: members live on their own. Fact is also that I have still to see
: longtime members who were *never* involved in MFTs. (I don't say it
: doesn't exist - I say that no one has stated so)
The tendency is that single members lived in a communal setting,
but after marriage and family, they found homes of their own. That
is no big surprise. MFT is a form of training, and never generated
so much money, compared to say the Japanese businesses which have
been providing money for church projects for years.
MFT does still exist, but it is not a primary means of raising
funds for the church. It is used as a training course, and is
supposed to be limited in extent. There were people who were on
MFT for long periods in the past and who came to resent it. It
would have been better for those people to ask to be reassigned if
they did not like their assignment. I did not ask to be reassigned,
but was glad when I was.
: >> >> Common to both lines if of course that Moon is an innocent man.
: >> >
: >> >What did Rev. Moon do that deserved being beat to the point of death and
: >> >being left in a pile of dead bodies in the snow, for dead?
: >>
: >> Did he tell you that ?
: >
: >No, the people that picked him up out of the pile of dead bodies testified
: >to it.
: details please
Read "Father's Course and Our Life of Faith" at:
http://www.unification.net/fcolf
for quite a lot of detail about Rev. Moon's life by Rev. Won Pil
Kim who was a first hand witness to many of the events, or else
heard them from Rev. Moon's associates after he left the concentration
camp.
: >> >What did Rev. Moon do that deserved two years imprisonment in a North
: >> >Korean death camp where the average survival was three to six months?
: >>
: >> A lot of people had bad times there. That doesn't make them a messiah.
: >
: >The question was what was he guilty of, Tilman? Not whether or not that
: >makes him the messiah.
: I don't know. Problem is that even if we got records that he was guilty
: for something, it wouldn't have much value, since he might argue that
: the communists were after him. I give the benefit of doubt, since I
: don't consider the North-Korean justice of those days to be for real.
North Korea was then and still is today a brutal totalitarian
dictatorship. Andrei Sahkarov and Alexandr Solzhenitsyn were
prisoners in the gulag in the Soviet Union, but one could hardly
call them criminals. Rather, they were prisoners of conscience.
Rev. Moon was imprisoned for corrupting young people, because he
was teaching religion. It sounds rather similar to the charges
against Socrates in ancient Greece. Rev. Moon was a prisoner of
conscience in the North Korean gulag.
I hope that this has cleared up some misunderstandings, as there
seem to be plenty of them around.
: Tilman Hausherr
Damian Anderson +1-301-921-0082 Home +1-202-267-9403 Work damian@unification.net
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Feb 13 1996
Subject: Unificationism and money
Newsgroups: alt.religion.unification,talk.religion.misc,alt.religion.christian
References: <199601042112.WAA29115@utopia.hacktic.nl> <311e4e49.19246379@news.snafu.de>
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service
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Tilman Hausherr (tilman@berlin.snafu.de) wrote:
: From the article posted anon a month ago:
: POWER FOR SALE FROM GREENPEACE TO THE REV. SUN MYUNG MOON, HOW PACS AND
: LOBBIES INFLUENCE AMERICA
: Chicago Tribune
: April 27, 1986
: By Kenneth R. Clark, a Tribune media writer based in New York.
This is rather old news, isn't it Tilman?
: Former Unification church member Hassan said the move away from
: fund- raising was prompted less by a question of public relations than
: by the realization that there was a better way to make money.
: ``They are notorious for taking members and putting them on their
: books as working in their businesses and saying on the books that
: they`re being paid salaries, when, in fact, they`re not being paid
: salaries,`` he said. ``In reality, the businesses are making money, but
: on paper they`re losing money because of the overhead on paying members.
: The bookkeeper writes checks out to everyone and signs the checks over
: to the tax-exempt side. Members don`t get them. They exploit every
: possible advantage and consequently, every weakness in our system of
: checks and balances.``
When a person who earns a salary donates it to a non-profit
organization, or charity or religion, this is allowed in America.
It is perfectly legal, and money donated to a church is not subject
to taxes. There may be limits, but I have not reached any! :-)
Would you expect someone living and working in a monastery to
receive a salary? Monks usually vow poverty, chastity and obedience.
The Unificationist preparation for marriage is a kind of co-ed
monasticism. Then, after marriage, we embark on a journey to
create a Godly family that is intended to be a source of blessing
to the world and consequently to ourselves. We are encouraged to
excel in society and to become masters of whatever we do. I do not
live in poverty, though I live fairly frugally so that I can use
my resources for altruistic purposes. That gives me joy beyond the
joy of material possessions.
: If so, the IRS is unaware of the practice. Moon`s conviction
: involved a falsification of records showing his personal funds to be
: church funds, but the church never has been indicted for irregularities
: in the bookkeeping of its many business interests.
The IRS spent months in our church buildings looking for evidence
to use against us. We probably should not have been so nice and
given them all the information, since they had no right to it. Our
constitution guarantees against unlawful search and seizure.
: Yeah Andy. It's all false. All members are paid - hahaha !
: I wonder how much.
Church members who work at the Washington Times are paid pretty
well. Since I am self-employed, I pay myself VERY well. :-) But I
also tithe to the church.
: Tilman Hausherr
Damian Anderson +1-301-921-0082 Home +1-202-267-9403 Work damian@unification.net
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Feb 13 1996
Subject: Re: No original sin?
Newsgroups: alt.religion.unification,talk.religion.misc,alt.religion.christian
References: <311100f9.3049930@news.snafu.de> <4f035p$854@pipe11.nyc.pipeline.com> <4fpcon$sul@zippy.cais.net> <3120d107.3054983@news.snafu.de>
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service
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Tilman Hausherr (tilman@berlin.snafu.de) wrote:
: In <4fpcon$sul@zippy.cais.net>, damian@cais2.cais.com (Damian J.
: Anderson) wrote:
: >: >Is there any advantage of being born without original sin ?
: >It is a good question. My answer is that the one who has been born
: >without original sin is like Adam or Jesus, who, without grievous
: >sin would naturally grow to perfection without the same struggle
: >that he rest of us encounter. However, that depends on the individual
: >to fulfil their responsibility. Adam did not, but Jesus did. As
: >for Rev. Moon's children, time will tell.
: I don't remember the context nor do I want to search; but I assume that
: your answer means that one born without original sin would have it
: easier to be perfect.
Yes, that is my understanding. However, we live in a very corrupt
environment, so that even if an individual is pure, the pressures
and temptations towards evil are very strong.
: The 1st problem is that considering this, Moon's
: son had it easier than you and me, yet he made the wrong decision
: (drinking and driving, driving without a license). The 2nd problem is
: that you imply (I think so) that Moon's son had a "bonus". Therefore I
: think he's actually much more bad he appears, but because of the
: "bonus", there isn't so much currently.
You don't know what kind of life he had and are in no position to
judge. Rev. Moon spent all of his adult life in a life and death
struggle to promote his vision of God's will. His family suffered
from that, and that is one of his many personal griefs.
: >There is no doubt in my mind that my children have a great head
: >start compared to where I was at their age in the area of personal
: >piety and knowledge of God. I was raised in a Catholic environment
: >where not questioning was a virtue, and I hated it.
: I understand that and agree with the last sentence - on the other hand,
: I have not seen anyone here questioning any Moon concept.
You are not likely to see someone do a lot of public self questioning
as long as you are on the attack. If you want to see honest
self-reflection, you need to be less hostile. It is a simple fact
of life that people under attack tend to be defensive. I find myself
not needing to be defensive, but then I am pretty assured of my
values and my faith, having thoroughly reviewed and hashed them
out during two major periods of trial and suffering in my life.
: >However, I did
: >adopt the values of my parents, to a large extent, even if I did
: >not adopt their Catholic theology. Whether they will adopt my values
: >in adolescence and adulthood remains to be seen.
: Would you accept if they decline to work for the Moon organisation, or
: even completely renounce any religion ?
I will always love my children no matter what, but I would be
heartbroken if they totally rejected my values and lived a heathen
lifestyle, but I don't see much chance of that right now. I would
not be upset at all if they failed to work for the church per se,
since I do not even do that. I am talking about living by the same
values and working towards the same goals, not necessarily working
within a particular organization. The organization can wither away
if the goals for which it has been striving have been achieved. I
believe that God never originally intended to create religion at
all. It only became necessary when humans became sinful as a result
of the fall of our first ancestors. If they had not sinned, we
would all naturally have been born into heaven, lived in heaven
our whole lives in the temporal world and then passed into the
heaven in the eternal world. So, religion is a remedy for a
problem, not an end in itself.
: Tilman Hausherr
Damian Anderson +1-301-921-0082 Home +1-202-267-9403 Work damian@unification.net
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Feb 13 1996
Subject: Re: Unificationism and money
Newsgroups: alt.religion.unification,talk.religion.misc,alt.religion.christian
References: <199601042112.WAA29115@utopia.hacktic.nl> <311e4e49.19246379@news.snafu.de> <4fpkvi$sul@zippy.cais.net> <3120d2cc.3507949@news.snafu.de>
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service
Distribution:
Tilman Hausherr (tilman@berlin.snafu.de) wrote:
: In <4fpkvi$sul@zippy.cais.net>, damian@cais2.cais.com (Damian J.
: Anderson) wrote:
: >Tilman Hausherr (tilman@berlin.snafu.de) wrote:
: >: From the article posted anon a month ago:
: >
: >: POWER FOR SALE FROM GREENPEACE TO THE REV. SUN MYUNG MOON, HOW PACS AND
: >: LOBBIES INFLUENCE AMERICA
: >: Chicago Tribune
: >: April 27, 1986
: >: By Kenneth R. Clark, a Tribune media writer based in New York.
: >
: >This is rather old news, isn't it Tilman?
: Yes. 10 years old. Reminds me that Andy brings up Steve's
: deprogrammings, which are 20 years old.
You mean that Steve Hassan has not done any deprogrammings since
1976? I know rather little about the guy, so I would not know
whether this is true or not.
: Using an "old" argument is IMO only a problem if the person has changed.
: For example, Steve Hassan has stopped to do "involuntaries". Rick Ross
: was a jewel thief and has never done a crime again.
Fair enough. I did not know that Rick Ross was a jewel thief.
: >: Former Unification church member Hassan said the move away from
: >: fund- raising was prompted less by a question of public relations than
: >: by the realization that there was a better way to make money.
: >: ``They are notorious for taking members and putting them on their
: >: books as working in their businesses and saying on the books that
: >: they`re being paid salaries, when, in fact, they`re not being paid
: >: salaries,`` he said. ``In reality, the businesses are making money, but
: >: on paper they`re losing money because of the overhead on paying members.
: >: The bookkeeper writes checks out to everyone and signs the checks over
: >: to the tax-exempt side. Members don`t get them. They exploit every
: >: possible advantage and consequently, every weakness in our system of
: >: checks and balances.``
: >
: >When a person who earns a salary donates it to a non-profit
: >organization, or charity or religion, this is allowed in America.
: >It is perfectly legal, and money donated to a church is not subject
: >to taxes. There may be limits, but I have not reached any! :-)
: What Hassan alleged was a bit different - that the people are paid only
: pro-forma, and that they return all their money.
Whatever they do with the money, as long as it is legal, who cares?
I have never had a paid position in a church business, though I
have had volunteer positions as a church member in various projects.
I have heard of church members donating all their salary to the
church and then being supported as a volunteer by the church. This
makes for a very simple life if you want to devote yourself to the
spiritual path, but it is clear that when one wants to settle down
and have a family, a real income is required.
: >Would you expect someone living and working in a monastery to
: >receive a salary? Monks usually vow poverty, chastity and obedience.
: This is ok. But there it is very clear that they don't receive any $$.
: There are no checks paid by one for-profit entity to make tax-losses,
: that are then shuffled over to the non-profit entity.
What matters then? The legality of a business or accounting practice,
or the appearance of impropriety? Just because a practice is
unconventional does not make it wrong or illegal. My business is
a for-profit entity, and I give money to the church which is a
non-profit entity, and in the process avoid the payment of taxes.
This is legal and accepted in America. Charitable contributions
are tax deductible.
However, the income I use for myself, I declare to the IRS and pay
taxes on, too much I might add. I believe that the US government
with its multi-trillion dollar budget and debt simply spends too
much money. However, I am smart enough to obey the law and pay
taxes, as I would like to keep my freedom. But I will lobby for
the reduction of taxes and government spending as a matter of
philosophy.
: Tilman Hausherr
Damian Anderson +1-301-921-0082 Home +1-202-267-9403 Work damian@unification.net
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Feb 14 1996
Subject: Re: Is There Any Valid Criteria Members Can Use to Disbelieve?
Newsgroups: alt.religion.unification,alt.religion.christian,alt.recovery.religion,alt.support.ex-cult
References: <311ba661.5470530@news.snafu.de> <4fkvjb$4ig@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <311f8589.4553502@news.snafu.de>
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service
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Eric B. Richardson (richa011@maroon.tc.umn.edu) wrote:
: In article <311f8589.4553502@news.snafu.de>, tilman@berlin.snafu.de wrote:
: > >where he believes non-Christians and die hard sinners go. [I hope I don't
: > >break up your friendship with Inga, Tilman. :-) ]
: >
: > I've never heard that non-christians go always to hell. Sure,
: > hard-sinners go to hell. But in traditional religions, people are not
: > threatened like that just because they want to sleep, or because they
: > have some pain because their "superior" almost killed them. Tradional
: > religions respects the free will of people.
: "None come to the father but by me." JC
: It is basic Christian theology, just like most any other religion. If you
: do not believe in Jesus, you cannot be saved. If you are not saved, you
: will go to hell. Where did you learn about Christianity? You pretend to be
: Christian, but at best you would be called a weekend warrior. You are
: lukewarm, and by good Christian standards, spewed from the mouth of God.
Eric, you are in no position to judge Tilman, and I object to your
doing so here. As God said to Cain, "Beware, for sin is crouching
at your door, and you must master it."
: Your allegations above are further distortions about Unification theology.
: We do not teach that which you imply above.
Unification theology does not teach that if you do not believe in
Jesus you will go to hell, and I don't think that Jesus taught that
either. Jesus taught us to love God with all our hearts and minds
and to love our neighbor as ourselves. If we love God and our
neighbors, Satan cannot claim us and drag us to hell. The parable
of the Good Samaritan illustrates well that someone who is politically
incorrect from the viewpoint of the orthodox believers can still receive
God's favor by practicing simple kindness and generosity.
Now the Unificationist perspective is that man who has sinned is
in a midway position, unable to be claimed by God or Satan, until
he makes some kind of condition to go one way or the other.
The condition by which Satan can claim someone is called Sin, and
the condition by which God can claim a person is called Indemnity.
In the age before the Old Testament, people were able to come to
God through offerings. In the age since Moses, the Old Testament
Age, people could come to God through obedience to the word, the
Ten Commandments being the summary of those words. In the New
Testament Age, people could come to God through faith in Jesus and
living as he taught us to live. In the time of the Second Advent,
the Completed Testament Age in which we now live, people can come
to God through direct attendance of the living Messiah and working
with him to fulfill God's plan of the Kingdom of heaven on Earth.
If one belongs to another religion other than the central providence
of the Judeo-Christian tradition, people receive merit through
obeying the teachings of the prophets and sages that God sent to
other parts of the world, but ultimately, they must all come through
the Lord on the earth to receive the highest level of God's grace
and blessing.
: We do teach that to be truly free, then the body should not dominate the
: mind and spirit. And that to be truly free, means to uphold your
: responsibility. Teaching people that truth is the greatest respect and
: love for people's free will that can be had. Teaching any less, would be a
: false love.
True, you are talking about the ideal, but there are many levels
of gray scale between darkest hell and perfection.
: *********************************************************************
: # Eric B. Richardson, Univ of Minnesota Medical School #
: # richa011@maroon.tc.umn.edu #
: *********************************************************************
Damian Anderson +1-301-921-0082 Home +1-202-267-9403 Work damian@unification.net
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Feb 14 1996
Subject: Re: Preparing for soc.support.ex-cult moderated
Newsgroups: alt.support.ex-cult,talk.religion.misc
Followup-To: alt.support.ex-cult,talk.religion.misc
References:
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service
Distribution:
Modemac (modemac@netcom.com) wrote:
: This is why a moderated support newsgroup for former members of cults and
: mind-control organizations is needed. With this in mind, I intend to
: make an official Request For Discussion for a moderated newsgroup, to be
: called soc.support.ex-cult.
: When this RFD is proposed, a flame war over the creation of the newsgroup
: will take place. Online representatives of certain organizations,
: especially Damian Anderson of the Unifcation Church and Roger Poehlmann
: (sp?) of the Boston Church of Christ, will claim that this is an attempt
: to create a forum especially for attacks on their organization. They may
: claim that it will be a propaganda forum for the Cult Awareness Network,
: and they may claim discrimination and religious persecution.
Hey, I just saw my name used in vain and I thought I would chime
in. You know I rarely even read this newsgroup (alt.support.ex-cult),
never mind engage in flame wars. Sometimes I respond to posts that
happen to be cross-posted here, but I carefully avoid flame wars
as I find them to be tiresome and unproductive.
But feel free to create your newsgroup if you must. I have no
objection to it. But, you know, anyone with the know-how can still
post to a moderated newsgroup, moderator or not, though it is
considered bad form and one can get in trouble for doing so.
If anything, the complaints about victimization are going to come
from the former members of various new religious movements (cults),
rather than those NRMs who are being dissected and scrutinized
online. I have more productive things to invest my energies in than
to be a part of that debate. If you want information though, I am
a willing source.
: Reverend Modemac (modemac@netcom.com)
: First Online Church of "Bob" "There is no black and white."
: PGP Key Fingerprint: 47 90 41 70 B4 5B 06 90 7B 38 4E 11 8A ED 80 DF
: URL: http://www.tiac.net/users/modemac/
: (FINGER modemac@netcom.com for a FREE SubGenius Pamphlet!)
Damian Anderson +1-301-921-0082 Home +1-202-267-9403 Work damian@unification.net
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Feb 14 1996
Subject: Re: World Scripture - Healing
Newsgroups: alt.religion.unification,talk.religion.misc,alt.religion.christian,alt.messianic
References: <17727340BS85.ELVIS@mitvma.mit.edu>
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service
Distribution:
Christine (ELVIS@mitvma.mit.edu) wrote:
: In article
: "Damian J. Anderson" writes:
:
: >HEALING
: >
: > The condition of fallen humanity has been likened to an infirmity
: >and a disease of the soul. Our ignorance of Reality renders us blind to
: >the truth and deaf to God's voice. Our hearts are heavy with pain and
: >suffering. Hence, salvation may be regarded as healing the soul of its
: >infirmity and restoring it to health where it can realize its true
: >potential. Religious teaching may be regarded as a sovereign remedy, and
: >the founder who bears the truth may be likened to a master physician.
: >
: > But there is also a causal, psychosomatic relationship between
: >healing of the soul and health of the body. Physical health is thus a
: >welcome by-product of spiritual health. Jesus performed miraculous
: >healings and exorcisms; today healings are performed in every part of the
: >world by spiritual healers of all religions.
:
: Lines removed for brevity
:
: >Damian Anderson
:
: Just curious. Your belief in a nutshell is ......
:
: a. All religions are the same. Follow any one of them because they
: all provide the same benefit.
: b. All religions are the same and it's wrong to follow just one,
: you must accept all of them.
: c. Other
:
: Peace,
: Christine
No, God has revealed Himself to humanity through various religions,
but the highest revelation of God until this age has been through
Jesus Christ. Having said that, I believe that religions have a
purpose and that is to recreate the ideal that God had when he
created us. That can only take place through the coming of the
Messiah. Christianity is the central religion with the messianic
expectation which can fulfill God's ideal when Christ comes. However,
if the believers fail to recognize him on his coming, then as God
had to raise up believers from among the lowest of the society who
could believe in and follow Jesus, it may well be that the leaders
of Christianity will fail to recognize the time of their visitation
as the leaders of Judaism in Jesus' day did.
So, pray constantly, and be vigilant, for the time of our visitation
is at hand. Indeed, he is here already.
Damian Anderson +1-301-921-0082 Home +1-202-267-9403 Work damian@unification.net
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